Off the Agenda: Conversations for Building Church Leaders

You have to be kidding me. Guns welcome at Horizon Church. No CCW needed, just bring your gun and a will to use it. This notion that only LEOs have the sense to use a weapon is dead wrong. Collateral damage and legal complications are a minor consequence compared to a mass killing. If we'd just defend our families a few times churches would cease to be a traget.

What would Jesus do?

I seem to remember Him actually rebuking an armed disciple who cut off the ear of one of His captors.

Do we have faith, that God is in control, just not that much faith?

Yes, Jesus rebuked Peter at that time and place. In another time and place He told the disciples to make sure they had a weapon, to sell their cloak if they didn't.

Anyone who can legally carry, needs to learn how to shoot, get a permit and carry concealed all the time. It is that simple.

Your first line of defense is . . . YOU!

I am quite offended that you would refer to those who legally possess a cwp as "armed vigilantes". As we have seen (all too frequently) criminals do not care where or when they decide to carry out their murders. I might remind you that the legally armed citizen, more so than anyone else, realizes the high cost and responsibility of being armed. Furthermore, they practice frequently so as to stay as prepared as possible. So...a gunman comes in, kills a couple of ushers, and is now in the sanctuary...the police are called, but they stand outside trying to figure out how best to proceed...in the meantime, one after another are being shot, then the shooter reloads... And you think we're just supposed to sit there and hide while he does this? It seems you don't know what you're talking about. We are living in a new day. If a legally armed citizen (your "vigilante") was successful in saving your own children from being gunned down, I imagine you'd have a completely different view.

The issue being raised by Richard isn't whether it is justifiable to use force for church security, but rather if it's better to incur the extra expense of using an off-duty officer instead of citizens. Do you think the legal concerns he raises justify that extra expense?

This is a very volatile issue. One thing to consider is that many churches have off duty or former officers or even current or former military as members of their church. Many of these individuals do have the training to fulfill the requirements of church security. Additionally, a member of the church, with adequate training, can also meet the standard to protect the church. I agree that a person who has completed a basic CCW course and has not taken any additional training is probably not the person a church should put into a position as a church security officer. However, run that same person through the appropriate classes including gun handling, tactics, force on force and legal requirements, then I believe that the church can fulfill it’s requirement for due diligence. I have had several CCW people on my church security staff over the past 7 years that are every bit as capable and as well trained as the normal beat officer. However it does take commitment and training to achieve this level.

These would be the type of people I would select for the churches volunteer security ministry. They would understand that it is a servant-based ministry and that they are NOT police officers. The duties are more in directing visitors on where to go, coordinating first aid responses, monitoring the offering pickup and in general, being a helpful soul to the church members. While a church might not be able to afford the price of an off duty officer, at 20 to 50 dollars per hour, suitable members of the church could fulfill the need.

In the past active shooters incidents, the shooting lasts from 3 to 8 minutes. In most of the cases the police response was not a factor in ending the incident. The church members either shot the attacker as in Colorado, piled on the attacker or the attacker committed suicide when finished killing.

If a church elects to provide their own team, they need to be serious about properly training them.

If you are interested in learning more on this subject go to www.churchsecuritymember.com.

This video is nothing more than leftist propaganda based in anecdotal nonsense and has nothing to do with reality, or a biblical theology of self defense or the defense of others. I am very offended that CT even put this piece of garbage on the net.
LG+

Wow. I would trust several church members I know over some officers when it came to restraint in some situations.

Ever seen videos of police over-reacting? Just last week was the popular You Tube video of the cops beating the guy who was thrown from his car after a chase.

I'm not willing to let some guy shoot my daughter and her friends, just because you think only the police should have the right to defend themselves or others.

I am disappointed in CT.

I am very disappointed that people here seem to have forgotten the cross and are buying into the myth of trdemptive violence

I really think it is wrong to even consider having any weapons as to protect the congregation while worshiping. It is not God's will. I came from a country where people were free to carry guns in public for protection and for outdoor sport, but during the worship hours, everyone would leave their guns and weapons at home. Not even a knife was to be seen at church. The believe that a congregation needs someone or a team with guns/weapons to protect them is dead wrong and it is not from the all-mighty God. So stop the devils who are making you unsecured worshiping the true God. Security only comes from God and no human being can provide that.

I believe that Mr. Hammar failed due to his ignorant inference that there is weakness in having armed citizens among us. Pointing out one or even a dozen instances of where an armed citizen does something irrational does not minimize, or rightfully allow Mr. Hammar to minimize the clear and historically proven benefit of armed citizens.

If churches can afford to employ secret service agent's or air marshals on Sunday mornings, than more power to them. For the rest, an armed churchgoer is better than an unarmed one.

Bob, with you considering it "wrong" and "not God's will" to have weapons defending the congregation, what would you do if someone came into the service shooting?

Oh, yes. Call the people who have weapons to come handle the situation from your cell phone while hiding beneath the pew.

I do not mean to sound rude here, but the point is that a murderer who enters the service will kill more than enough people before your 911 call is dispatched.

The same goes for your home. Office. Etc.

"Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God." Psalm 20:7

The modern paraphrase of that is apparently: "Some trust in vigilantes and some in off-duty police officers..."

It is a pity to read the comments of those that think it is ever appropriate to condone the use of firearms by any person in any church. If the church is to be any different from the world, then it cannot retreat into the false security of weapons of any sort, no matter who brings them into the building. By so doing, we

I think some of the people who have posted a comment here need to remember that we worship the Prince of Peace, not the Prince of Violence.

Didn't Christ equip us with a spiritual armour that no man can defeat? And aren't we commanded to pray for our enemies, rather than scheme against them?

So, if I have permit to carry a weapon, I am vigilante. You are sad.

This has nothing to do with protecting the church goers from getting shot. It is all about protecting the church (insurance?) from lawsuits AFTER someone got shot, and possibly killed.
Lawyers protect you AFTER you are hurt. Security (in whatever form) protects you BEFORE you get hurt.

A senile myopic misunderstanding of security protection versus legal protection. What good is a lawyer when you are dead?

I think there's something of a confusion here that assumes that, by carrying handguns, we are somehow failing to trust God.

The reality is, of course, that God has given us common sense, and presumably he expects us to use it. We lock our doors, not because we do not trust God's provision, but because those locks are themselves a part of his providence. In the same way, a churchmember who comes to church armed may have been brought by the Lord "for such a time as this." We may hope to never need such providence- just as I hope the locks on my home will never be tried- but it would be prideful to assume that that such will be the case. More, it would be inaccurate: my own church has dealt with armed robbery, and had pastors held at gunpoint, and clearly others have faced worse. Are we really prepared to say that the Lord is more glorified by a church where innocents are shot and killed than one where they are protected?

I'm reminded of Scripture's injunction against testing the Lord. Certainly, we trust him to protect us- but that is not license for recklessness.

As a European my jaw drops hearing about all that gun stuff. We simply have no guns, and hence, no-one gets shot. Best way to stop gun violence: ban guns.

I also think you have such violence because your society is based on competition, exclusion and insecurity. Travelling in the US i've also seen many people on the streets who lacked the mental health care they needed. You could build a more secure society by making it... more secure. You'd see those violence statistics drop in no time.

I would like to know if you, people who believe that a security team is againt God's will, go to the doctor when you are sick. Do you have the faith that God is going to heal you, if so why do we need doctors? If you have the faith, then I agree we do not need a security team in the church. The security team is vital part of the church because of time we live in. The team is to provide the people a place to worship and not worry about outside threats.

I WORK IN A CHURCH SECURITY MINISTRY AND ALL I CAN SAY IS READ JOHN 15:13, EZEKIEL 33:1-6 AND IF YOU ARE STILL NEEEDING PROOF READ NEHEMIAH

I have been a law enforcement professional for over 21 years and a Pastor in a growing Protestant church. I understand that there are those that beleive that they should have the right to carry there guns into church in order ot protect their families and i respect that greatly but at the same time just becuase you carry a gun doesnt mean you know how to properly use it.. Police officers are in real life scenario on a daily basis. The untrained civilian doesnot understand what or how to deal with an active shooter scenario,simply because they dont understand and dont deal with it on an everyday basis. A cross fire situation as well comes into play as well as many other factors. Just because you have a gun doesnt stop some one from taking it from you and using it on you or others.. Again i respect the right to carry arms Leave the security to the Professionals Police Officers.